<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Micky Bulvaar @ Feb 9 2006, 12:28 PM) [snapback]41778[/snapback][/center]
I have to admit I'm seeing a different side of Hakan here, on I'm not used to seeing.
Regardless of whether I agree with his viewpoint or not, no one can claim he doesn't argue his point intelligently.
Guess that just goes to show you can't really judge someone by what you see by their forum posts huh?
I haven't weighed in on this topic yet, but I guess I'll throw my .02 in.
First off I'm coming from the perspective of a Canadian (who are widely held to be very tolerant of other faiths, sometimes maybe even to a fault, we don't subsbribe to a "melting pot" philosophy for example) who was schooled in Catholic schools, so no doubt my teachings were influenced by even a slight bias.
Havinmg said that, there is a significant difference between faith and religion.
To me faith is about ideals and core beliefs, and religion is about expression and guidelines.
No question that the basis of our laws and rules that govern how we interact with one another is deeply influenced by the predominant religions in the area in question.
Without religion, morality would be an individual determination, (and in many respects even with religions, it still is) and the way in which we interact with one another would be radically different.
The danger with religions, with any religion, is exactly as Hakan stated, it can used as a means to manipulate those that subscribe to it blindly.
Its not a Muslim thing, its apparent in every religion.
Protestants and Catholics have been killing each other for decades.
Muslims and Jews, Jews and Christians, Christians and Muslims....
This is why I have problems with generalizations which paint an entire faith with the same brush.
Sadly too there are those whose violent retaliations have nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with opportunism.
Consider similar events not even linked to religion such as the Watts riots or the looting in New Orleans after the devastation.
Yes I do believe that the newspaper had the right to publish those cartoons.
I also believe strongly that the government of Denmark has no place in censoring or limiting the media in that country.
To do otherwise is to open a door to an Orwellian type of governance which I think everyone agrees is the last place we want to go.
On the other hand, the reaction to this was most definately predictable.
There exists within the Muslim world, groups that advocate this type of action against infidels, and these groups seize on any opportunity like this to advance their message.
In the end, the only thing thats really missing here is understanding.
Understanding by the paper in question of the repercussions its choice would bring, and understanding by these radicals that every action by those outside the Muslim world is not a directed affront against Mohammed or Allah.
Its a sad situation but one that will continue long after all of us are gone.
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There are certain issues which needs to be clearified. First of all I will say this to suprise everyone, the most close regime to a true islamic regime atm on world is U.S. There are ofcourse differences regarding laws but the U.S. constitution is indeed a good one for which I do respect the founding fathers of the U.S. greatly.
I said faith for the simple reason that in Islam faith is essential. A true muslim should question the existance of Allah first, then Quran and probhets. Unlike christianity Islam denies any human being including the probhet any divine power. Probhet is a human being and hes the messanger but he can make mistakes as a human being just like any other one. Quran is not his teaching, its a divine message, coming right from Allah and teaches the answer to the very question which is asked by any thinking human being, whom am I, where did I come from and where am I going. Once you accept the existance of Allah and Quran being the divine message, you can no longer question its orders as it means you challange the divine message. For this reason a true muslim who acquired faith through questioning has no doubt whatsoever for the message delivered by Allah.There is nothing inbetween a muslim and Allah, thats why Islam in fact doesnt have a cleric class.
Nations like Iran and S.Arabia are quite far from the spirit of Quran. They are totalarian regimes, there is a long struggle in these countries including Turkey to turn to the true roots of Islam. Ppl are sent to jail in the past for this and it still needs a lot of time to beat the oppression.
The problems with the Western world and Islam world in general goes back to 1st WW basicly. It starts with an English spy called Lawrence. He promised a lot of things to Bedevi's (if I am not mistaken that tribe is situated in Syria now) However after 1st WW both England and France didnt accept to keep their promises and arabs paid the price of betraying their brethern. An artificial middle east map was created. None of the Arab nations of today apart fm Egypt have a nation history. Even Egypt under Ottoman rule was like an independant state in interior affairs but was still part of the Ottoman empire just like many other states. After 2nd WW Russia tried to influence the region aswell becoz of rich oil fields. There was a coup in Iraq with which Baas regime came to power which was close to Russia, Syria and Egypt under Nasir dictatorship also chose to ally with U.S.S.R. In this period there was an unsuccesful capture try by the English and French on Suez Canal. And the forced instution of Israel. For over 30 years M.East was a fighting and testing grounds for the U.S.S.R. and U.S. Under the influence and aid of U.S.S.R, arabs time after time tried to destroy Israel which ended at Golan heights with the victory of Israel. Now defeating arabs over and over again Israel gained quite a bit of land. And especially Jerusalem. Palestinians and Yaser Arafat was used by those totalarian regimes as to forget the inner problems and use it as a decieving factor for their own populace. Iran was under Pehlevi regime which was also totalarian and in pact with the U.S. Possibly Iran at that time was the only nation U.S sold F-15s. However the iranian ppl were not happy with Shah Pehlevi and they rioted under Humeyni and U.S made a big mistake by freezing Iranian funds which ended up with the embassy crisis. I am guessing the american governments never forgot the humiliating experience of the embassy crisis and instead of coming to an agreement with the new Iranian regime, they kept it hostile. I see this as a major mistake and prolly its one of the main reasons which still keeps the hostilities. Making Jerusalem capital was an other mistake in the region. I found it very amusing to see in Sum of All Fears, Tom Clancy offered the very same solution , I was thinking with the only exception of Swiss troops instead of Turkish troops. Please do remember that muslims, jews and christians lived in peace for 400 years in the region in peace under Ottoman empire. Jerusalem is a holly city for all 3 religions.
Things changed in region, Carter era brought peace between Israel and Egypt. The whole situation was and is still getting better also with death of Hafiz Esad the Syrian president. U.S. made an other error with Saddam, trying to use him as a pawn against Iran. I wish Turkey took a more involving role as a protective for the region with U.S but due to religious concerns of secular Turkish army, Turkey stayed away from it. At the end U.S found herself in a very hard position, the extremists used christianity factor against U.S and U.S made an other error with the 1st gulf War. The error is more of a calculation error to try to use Iraq for their own ends to control the region. With the current U.S admin its no secret that U.S chose a more military control approach for the region which is very dangerous. Please visit the link I gave before for a better understanding of the current administration's plans over the region.
From now on the question is how to end the hostilities. First of all I believe U.S needs to cease any support she gives to totalarian regimes in the region especially S.Arabia. U.S needs to leave Iraq asap. U.S needs to decrease hostilities with Iran. Iran apart fm other nations in the region except Turkey has a long nation history and can easily flourish and decrease the totalarian regime rapidly if the pressure is decreased. Keep in mind that under pressure its easier for the current regime to pump hostilities and thus keep the current regime active. Nuclear power and or weapons is a totally different subject and this post is already too long than i intented to do at the 1st place. I hope u can have a better understanding on the region and the artificial hatred towards U.S..
All kidding aside, my point is valid. Ignorant people burn shit and in this day and age there are more ignorant muslims than any other religion. You have ignorant people who will believe anything for a promise of a better life in the afterworld. If you are ignorant and your life sucks now, you get some cleric saying kill americans or jews, and you get 72 virgins in the after life, hell sweet deal to me. In fact Christianity should start remarketing to get us some virgins too. Though one side note, I believe 3 of the 72 virgins are Timi, fluffy, and noahthepurdy.