To All Those Muslims Burning & Protesting That Cartoon
- Thread starter Eldiablo8
- Start date
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060209/ap_on_...rophet_drawings
Yep was wondering when we were gonna get blamed for this.
Yep was wondering when we were gonna get blamed for this.
reek
New member
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hakan @ Feb 9 2006, 01:51 AM) [snapback]41872[/snapback][/center]
Personally, my interpretation of the cartoons is political satire. The one I've seen the most is the one of Muhammed wearing a turban which happens to be a bomb. My interpretation of that cartoon is that the artist is saying he thinks that violence/terrorism have become an inherent aspect of the religion.
G
Guest
Guest
Once again Reek is a smart guy and I have to agree with him. You can't supress speech just because it offends someone. 60 years ago, saying black people are equal to whites was insulting to a lot of people. In the same vein today, many people equate abortion to killing a baby, while others such as myself that don't believe in such things as souls or god or whatever view it as preventing a birth. To the anti abortion people, abortion is equal in evilness to actually killing a real living baby who's already been born. So printing anything supporting abortion is basically the same as saying killing babies is ok; which under the logic of some people in this thread should be supressed.
The point being....who decides which speech should be supressed? You can no more tell a KKK member he can't voice his racist opinions then the government can tell you you can't speak against the president. Imagine living in China where journalists are jailed for speaking negatively about the government.
The point being....who decides which speech should be supressed? You can no more tell a KKK member he can't voice his racist opinions then the government can tell you you can't speak against the president. Imagine living in China where journalists are jailed for speaking negatively about the government.
Esinoth
New member
I cant really speak for the US internally but in the UK from the protests and the signs that were shown i believe scotland yard is investigating them and some of the people there may be prosecuted / watched for future acts. One guy who had dressed like a suicide bomber in the crowd has recently been put into prison (apprently in doing this he had breached his bail) so hes away for a few years however he did apologise for what hed done before he was prosecuted which may have been a community pressured act.
We have the BNP also who are trying to revert England back to all white, as the leader states the UK is now a multi racial hell hole..they believe that muslims are good for nothing and suck off the economy of the country.
It is a fact that in every culture there are work shy people..and there are indeed sects of muslim immigrants that come into Britian that have no intension of working and want to live off the money the tax payers earn and unfortunatly its true that the majority of people that are causing the racial tension in Britian at the moment are these kinds of people and it does really make you wounder why are these people in our country..they use our things, they live off us and then they stirr up racial hatred and say the west is evil and they want terrorist attacks directed at us...its to those people that i really wanna say get the f out of our country, you dont deserve to be here.
The problem is that parties like the BNP and alot of unintelligent people around the world cant tell the difference and they still think that any1 with the same coloured skin is a threat and any1 who follows Islam is a threat.
One solution that people seem to have is just leave the east and let them all get on with their lives, i really dont think this will work because (no offense to the muslims) but i truely believe that if there was no western interference in the east they would destroy each other and alot of innocent people would die. I also believe that too much western interference in the east will lead to what we have now.. more terrorism because the extremists feel that their religion / way of life / holey land..is under threat.
I personally believe that the current trouble in the middle east is caused by 2 things.
1) Religion
2) State of Israel
and 1 of them needs removing :mellow:
We have the BNP also who are trying to revert England back to all white, as the leader states the UK is now a multi racial hell hole..they believe that muslims are good for nothing and suck off the economy of the country.
It is a fact that in every culture there are work shy people..and there are indeed sects of muslim immigrants that come into Britian that have no intension of working and want to live off the money the tax payers earn and unfortunatly its true that the majority of people that are causing the racial tension in Britian at the moment are these kinds of people and it does really make you wounder why are these people in our country..they use our things, they live off us and then they stirr up racial hatred and say the west is evil and they want terrorist attacks directed at us...its to those people that i really wanna say get the f out of our country, you dont deserve to be here.
The problem is that parties like the BNP and alot of unintelligent people around the world cant tell the difference and they still think that any1 with the same coloured skin is a threat and any1 who follows Islam is a threat.
One solution that people seem to have is just leave the east and let them all get on with their lives, i really dont think this will work because (no offense to the muslims) but i truely believe that if there was no western interference in the east they would destroy each other and alot of innocent people would die. I also believe that too much western interference in the east will lead to what we have now.. more terrorism because the extremists feel that their religion / way of life / holey land..is under threat.
I personally believe that the current trouble in the middle east is caused by 2 things.
1) Religion
2) State of Israel
and 1 of them needs removing :mellow:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(reek @ Feb 9 2006, 01:24 AM) [snapback]41862[/snapback][/center]
Props to both of you for being men enough to bury the hatchet, and big ups to Hakan for being the first to extend the olive branch.
/respect
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hakan @ Feb 9 2006, 01:51 AM) [snapback]41872[/snapback][/center]
Hakan I completely agree with you.
While techincally and literally, people have the right to free speech and can do what they want with it...I feel its a right that really is a priviledge, one that many people in other countries don't have.
As such, I think it's incumbent upon people to use that right resposibly.
To fail to do so is to dishonour those that have given their lives defending that freedom...I'd suggest those that have made those sacrficie would want that you use the fruits of that sacrifice for more than to insult others.
Props to both of you for being men enough to bury the hatchet, and big ups to Hakan for being the first to extend the olive branch.
/respect
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hakan @ Feb 9 2006, 01:51 AM) [snapback]41872[/snapback][/center]
Hakan I completely agree with you.
While techincally and literally, people have the right to free speech and can do what they want with it...I feel its a right that really is a priviledge, one that many people in other countries don't have.
As such, I think it's incumbent upon people to use that right resposibly.
To fail to do so is to dishonour those that have given their lives defending that freedom...I'd suggest those that have made those sacrficie would want that you use the fruits of that sacrifice for more than to insult others.
Hakan
.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Esinoth @ Feb 10 2006, 02:57 AM) [snapback]42001[/snapback][/center]
The problem lies in history, England above all was a colonial power which exploited other nation's resources to amass wealth. Those ppl who are living in England mostly came from colonies. You cant solve the current issues w/o knowing and accepthing the past.
Mankind as a rule likes to blame others for his faults coz its easy. Its much more about economical issues than religion. Thats why Western world needs to stop to exploit or further support for the tyrants in the region for the sake of controlling oil which is the main wealth of current muslims. Its ofcourse about being honest to solve the issues or not. Mankind has both the ability to become lower than wildest animals and to become a saint. Its about will and choices.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hippo @ Feb 10 2006, 02:45 AM) [snapback]41997[/snapback][/center]
Its not about offending, u can offend somebody by saying hes a thief. This is no insult, this is an accusation and u r expected to present evidence that he stole.
The problem lies in history, England above all was a colonial power which exploited other nation's resources to amass wealth. Those ppl who are living in England mostly came from colonies. You cant solve the current issues w/o knowing and accepthing the past.
Mankind as a rule likes to blame others for his faults coz its easy. Its much more about economical issues than religion. Thats why Western world needs to stop to exploit or further support for the tyrants in the region for the sake of controlling oil which is the main wealth of current muslims. Its ofcourse about being honest to solve the issues or not. Mankind has both the ability to become lower than wildest animals and to become a saint. Its about will and choices.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hippo @ Feb 10 2006, 02:45 AM) [snapback]41997[/snapback][/center]
Its not about offending, u can offend somebody by saying hes a thief. This is no insult, this is an accusation and u r expected to present evidence that he stole.
Esinoth
New member
Its very easy to blame history for the state of things..to a degree it can be said that the middle east is in a "third world" state because of being exploited by the west.
However i think there is alot of trade to these countries..Saudi Arabia is incredibly rich..Iraq holds one of the largest oil reserves in the world.. also areas of Africa are highly rich in diamond and oil.
The problem is corrupt governments and a strong religious control..these people do not share their money on developing the country, they just spend it within their circle of friends and help build palaces for themselves or developing weapons. This explains why the people of the countries starve and live in poor conditions.
What else do these people have in their lives without food or money... they have religion and this leads to fanatasism. It might be a very general statement to make but the majority of the fanatics in the third world areas have nothing else but their religion in their lives...and with this grows recentment towards the west. This can lead to nothing but trouble.
To me India should be looked upon as a shining example of how to develop yourself into a democratic country that lives in harmony with a strong religious way of live. Granted India still does have a long way to go as alot is still in a degenerative state..but the economy is thriving and it is slowly dragging its way up after years of living as a third world country which is mainly due to western trade and influences.
Basically im saying you cant always blame history for what the current state is and continuing to hold that anger .
However i think there is alot of trade to these countries..Saudi Arabia is incredibly rich..Iraq holds one of the largest oil reserves in the world.. also areas of Africa are highly rich in diamond and oil.
The problem is corrupt governments and a strong religious control..these people do not share their money on developing the country, they just spend it within their circle of friends and help build palaces for themselves or developing weapons. This explains why the people of the countries starve and live in poor conditions.
What else do these people have in their lives without food or money... they have religion and this leads to fanatasism. It might be a very general statement to make but the majority of the fanatics in the third world areas have nothing else but their religion in their lives...and with this grows recentment towards the west. This can lead to nothing but trouble.
To me India should be looked upon as a shining example of how to develop yourself into a democratic country that lives in harmony with a strong religious way of live. Granted India still does have a long way to go as alot is still in a degenerative state..but the economy is thriving and it is slowly dragging its way up after years of living as a third world country which is mainly due to western trade and influences.
Basically im saying you cant always blame history for what the current state is and continuing to hold that anger .
Artica
Imperial Kitten
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(reek @ Feb 8 2006, 05:15 PM) [snapback]41756[/snapback][/center]
First, don't be exagerated.
Second, let me put it with an example. Let's say there are some kids playing in the street with a ball. And playing they kick the ball towards a neighbor house, break a window and any othe thing the ball hits. The neighbors go with the parents of the kids and ask for payment of damages. The parents refuse to do so, for x or y reason. The neighbors break the parents window in return (if you put a US family, they can sue the parents. but I decided to come with an approach from another country, were sueing will lead you no where. So action must be taken.) The parents can either pay the concequences cause by the kids, or make the kids work it out out someone.
Same can be done by the country. The concequences of the newspaper affected the countries trading and income. Thus the government can either apologize or make them apologize. This concequences have gone overboard already, violence with the muslims and so forth. There are even dead people over this.
Now if the Danish paper, and/or government apologize (and those other countries that published it) to the muslim people; and they dont stop, then that's another matter. And can be dealt with in another way.
By common sense, you should apologize to Stavrose for calling him names. Is your decision if you want or not. And of course there are concequences to that. But nothing major, since Stavrose won't lose sleep over such a childish way of addressing a problem.
There is no law to stop freedom of expression, and in this case they will not stop freedom of expression. The government will only sanction the action of the paper (if theydecide to do so). That doesn't mean that they can say whatever they want. But that they have to think twice next time before doing so.
I am for Freedom of Speech. But such a term is a falacy, cause as Hakan said, there is no Black and White, it's GRAY. And thus, together with FoS you have to use your values and respect other values as persons. Also, common sense. You have to respect the people you live around. I don't know you and the place you live. But here, we have so many ethnicities (for all those people that live in California, and the south of the US) You have to consider them. We have Japanese, Chinese, Iranies, Iraquis, Saudi Arabs, Mexican, Brazilians, Venezuelan, Argentines, and so on... people from so many countries and to be able to coexist, we have to respect each other.
First, don't be exagerated.
Second, let me put it with an example. Let's say there are some kids playing in the street with a ball. And playing they kick the ball towards a neighbor house, break a window and any othe thing the ball hits. The neighbors go with the parents of the kids and ask for payment of damages. The parents refuse to do so, for x or y reason. The neighbors break the parents window in return (if you put a US family, they can sue the parents. but I decided to come with an approach from another country, were sueing will lead you no where. So action must be taken.) The parents can either pay the concequences cause by the kids, or make the kids work it out out someone.
Same can be done by the country. The concequences of the newspaper affected the countries trading and income. Thus the government can either apologize or make them apologize. This concequences have gone overboard already, violence with the muslims and so forth. There are even dead people over this.
Now if the Danish paper, and/or government apologize (and those other countries that published it) to the muslim people; and they dont stop, then that's another matter. And can be dealt with in another way.
By common sense, you should apologize to Stavrose for calling him names. Is your decision if you want or not. And of course there are concequences to that. But nothing major, since Stavrose won't lose sleep over such a childish way of addressing a problem.
There is no law to stop freedom of expression, and in this case they will not stop freedom of expression. The government will only sanction the action of the paper (if theydecide to do so). That doesn't mean that they can say whatever they want. But that they have to think twice next time before doing so.
I am for Freedom of Speech. But such a term is a falacy, cause as Hakan said, there is no Black and White, it's GRAY. And thus, together with FoS you have to use your values and respect other values as persons. Also, common sense. You have to respect the people you live around. I don't know you and the place you live. But here, we have so many ethnicities (for all those people that live in California, and the south of the US) You have to consider them. We have Japanese, Chinese, Iranies, Iraquis, Saudi Arabs, Mexican, Brazilians, Venezuelan, Argentines, and so on... people from so many countries and to be able to coexist, we have to respect each other.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Artica @ Feb 9 2006, 09:22 PM) [snapback]42034[/snapback][/center]
Exactly why this debate reached page 12 and there's still no consensus: because both Reek and Hakan are right. The Danish government should not, in any way, force the newspaper to apologize; it's up to them. Freedom of the press is a fundamental trait in modern western societies. That article had little regard for the muslim people who follow the Quran as they should; the press often ignores other people's moral values, but they knew the middle-east countries are deeply religious people and among those, there are extremists who will do horrible acts in the name of religion, so in a way, they were asking for it.
And Hakan, without US backing them, Israel probably would not exist on the map right now ... I gotta give it to them though, those guys have quite a history, short as it may be, but they repeatedly kicked ass all around
This is a sensitive subject though, so I'll stop here.
Exactly why this debate reached page 12 and there's still no consensus: because both Reek and Hakan are right. The Danish government should not, in any way, force the newspaper to apologize; it's up to them. Freedom of the press is a fundamental trait in modern western societies. That article had little regard for the muslim people who follow the Quran as they should; the press often ignores other people's moral values, but they knew the middle-east countries are deeply religious people and among those, there are extremists who will do horrible acts in the name of religion, so in a way, they were asking for it.
And Hakan, without US backing them, Israel probably would not exist on the map right now ... I gotta give it to them though, those guys have quite a history, short as it may be, but they repeatedly kicked ass all around
This is a sensitive subject though, so I'll stop here.
Hakan
.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Esinoth @ Feb 10 2006, 05:16 AM) [snapback]42031[/snapback][/center]
I didnt blame the history, I stated a fact. Humanity has 2 options, either take lesson from past and realize that exploiting the power a country has to gain unfair economical advantages sooner or later will result as the end of the world and change the U.N. system where right is powerful not the powerful is right or continue to fight for economical reasons till the end of the world.
I will give you a simple exanple for you to understand. There are chinese farmers in video games right and nobody likes them but still continue to purchase credits or items online. Whom is to blame? Farmers or the ones who buy those credits? Whats the solution? To stop buying the credits?
Now its not an easy goal to achieve as mankind is greedy and prefers present pleasure to distant pains. I hope for the sake of humanity, one day they will learn to live as decent human beings.
I didnt blame the history, I stated a fact. Humanity has 2 options, either take lesson from past and realize that exploiting the power a country has to gain unfair economical advantages sooner or later will result as the end of the world and change the U.N. system where right is powerful not the powerful is right or continue to fight for economical reasons till the end of the world.
I will give you a simple exanple for you to understand. There are chinese farmers in video games right and nobody likes them but still continue to purchase credits or items online. Whom is to blame? Farmers or the ones who buy those credits? Whats the solution? To stop buying the credits?
Now its not an easy goal to achieve as mankind is greedy and prefers present pleasure to distant pains. I hope for the sake of humanity, one day they will learn to live as decent human beings.
Madrigal
New member
Wow. This is a lively little thread.
For whatever it's worth, I don't think that we as westerners can ever put ourselves into the minds of the protesters. To write them off as a bunch of crazy people, not only misses the point, but reflects the general simplistic stupidity and thick-headedness that has poisoned our culture these past few years.
I don't believe it's ever appropriate to turn to violence. In fact, today's riots remind me so much of the Rodney King riots of '92. Did those people (Americans, BTW) burn, kill, and destroy because one guy got beaten up? Hell no! There were years of tension building up. Rodney King just popped the cork. I think the same is going on here. Belittle it if you want, just remember that not taking it seriously is what eventually made 911 possible.
Oh, and on the subject of Jesus cartoons... Christians are not going to riot over that. Especially the ones that actually understand christianity. But start talking about gay marriage, or abortion, or (gak) evolution... whoa, look out. You think monkeys throw shit at the zoo? heh. Pat Robertson himself will call for a lightning strike on your ass.
/tip $0.02
For whatever it's worth, I don't think that we as westerners can ever put ourselves into the minds of the protesters. To write them off as a bunch of crazy people, not only misses the point, but reflects the general simplistic stupidity and thick-headedness that has poisoned our culture these past few years.
I don't believe it's ever appropriate to turn to violence. In fact, today's riots remind me so much of the Rodney King riots of '92. Did those people (Americans, BTW) burn, kill, and destroy because one guy got beaten up? Hell no! There were years of tension building up. Rodney King just popped the cork. I think the same is going on here. Belittle it if you want, just remember that not taking it seriously is what eventually made 911 possible.
Oh, and on the subject of Jesus cartoons... Christians are not going to riot over that. Especially the ones that actually understand christianity. But start talking about gay marriage, or abortion, or (gak) evolution... whoa, look out. You think monkeys throw shit at the zoo? heh. Pat Robertson himself will call for a lightning strike on your ass.
/tip $0.02
Hakan
.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Arano @ Feb 10 2006, 05:50 AM) [snapback]42041[/snapback][/center]
Israel did an extremely well job and Arabs did an extremely bad job. Relations between Israel and U.S. is a touchy subject tho. Israel didnt hesitate to sink a U.S recon vessel in one of the wars. Historically most of the Arabs living in that region are nomads and they do lack the institutions of a settled civilization. Thats why they never were able to do proper organization and communication. Also contrary to common belief, Arabic tribes (they are more tribes than nations) dont trust each other. Thats why their numbers never resulted to achieve a desicive victory. In one war they were close but for the reasons stated above they screwed it.
Israel also fought with the ferocity as a cornered leopard. And they now believe they deserve to take privilages of the victory. However they are still afraid. Its not an easy feeling for roughly 5 million people surrounded with hundreds of millions of Arabs who wants to see them dead. There is an arabic term if i am not mistaken its 'Beuda yehud' means death to jews. I dont think instution of a Palastine republic is the exact solution to the problem, as long as Jerusalem is not settled, best choice is to make Jerusalem governed by a triumvirlik, a jewish haham, a christian cleric and a muslim. and make it a free city which belongs to none.
Oh on a side note, one should really take lessons from the past. What happened to change the fact that these ppl lived in peace for hundreds of years while jews were massacred in Europe? The solution is hidden there.
Exactly why this debate reached page 12 and there's still no consensus: because both Reek and Hakan are right. The Danish government should not, in any way, force the newspaper to apologize; it's up to them. Freedom of the press is a fundamental trait in modern western societies. That article had little regard for the muslim people who follow the Quran as they should; the press often ignores other people's moral values, but they knew the middle-east countries are deeply religious people and among those, there are extremists who will do horrible acts in the name of religion, so in a way, they were asking for it.
And Hakan, without US backing them, Israel probably would not exist on the map right now ... I gotta give it to them though, those guys have quite a history, short as it may be, but they repeatedly kicked ass all around
[/b]
Israel did an extremely well job and Arabs did an extremely bad job. Relations between Israel and U.S. is a touchy subject tho. Israel didnt hesitate to sink a U.S recon vessel in one of the wars. Historically most of the Arabs living in that region are nomads and they do lack the institutions of a settled civilization. Thats why they never were able to do proper organization and communication. Also contrary to common belief, Arabic tribes (they are more tribes than nations) dont trust each other. Thats why their numbers never resulted to achieve a desicive victory. In one war they were close but for the reasons stated above they screwed it.
Israel also fought with the ferocity as a cornered leopard. And they now believe they deserve to take privilages of the victory. However they are still afraid. Its not an easy feeling for roughly 5 million people surrounded with hundreds of millions of Arabs who wants to see them dead. There is an arabic term if i am not mistaken its 'Beuda yehud' means death to jews. I dont think instution of a Palastine republic is the exact solution to the problem, as long as Jerusalem is not settled, best choice is to make Jerusalem governed by a triumvirlik, a jewish haham, a christian cleric and a muslim. and make it a free city which belongs to none.
Oh on a side note, one should really take lessons from the past. What happened to change the fact that these ppl lived in peace for hundreds of years while jews were massacred in Europe? The solution is hidden there.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Madrigal @ Feb 9 2006, 10:19 PM) [snapback]42055[/snapback][/center]
The majority of the states with a chrisitian majority do not have a religious education as strict as the islamic countries; christians do not stop their activity 5 times a day to pray. I can assure you that christian people with a strong religious backround would, in fact, feel deeply insulted over jokes on Jesus; perhaps not extreme enough to commit murder, as religious education made progress since the middle ages for christianity.
The majority of the states with a chrisitian majority do not have a religious education as strict as the islamic countries; christians do not stop their activity 5 times a day to pray. I can assure you that christian people with a strong religious backround would, in fact, feel deeply insulted over jokes on Jesus; perhaps not extreme enough to commit murder, as religious education made progress since the middle ages for christianity.