To All Those Muslims Burning & Protesting That Cartoon

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stavrose @ Feb 8 2006, 12:05 PM) [snapback]41585[/snapback][/center]
So if your local newspaper printed a cartoon of a bunch of white people lynching a black guy, its ok? According to you, it is, cause its free speech and they have the right to. So if then a portion of the black community starts to go on shooting rampages killing every white person in sight, it is wrong, cause the newpaper had the right to publish it?

Thats your argument.
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That is how I'm getting it.
Then a couple of posts below*, he changed his point of view to contradict you.
This is what I'm understanding from Reek's argument.


*Which is above from this.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(RSCIW @ Feb 8 2006, 01:58 PM) [snapback]41638[/snapback][/center]
I wonder how much people would have to say if they had to think about every sentence they say/write/etc... if it could hurt someone somewhere sometime...

not much I believe...

it's just a damn fucking comic!
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You and I see it that way, because, perhaps we are not too attached to our religions (whatever they are). And thus, we don't care what other people say about it as long as they don't insult us directly. But for them, this issue is very important, and worth fighting and dieing for.
 
Its just reek trying to force his beliefs upon everyone else, as usual. God forbid someone sees things otherwise, he or she becomes an "idiot"
 
First of all religion is for educated ppl. There are 2 kind of faiths, a blind faith which is common in today's Muslim world as it was common in medieval ages in Europe. This faith is subject to manipulation and easy to provoke. Popes used it for Crusades, today in many countries political leaders are using it in the muslim world. Muslim world was at its peak when ppl actually knew what Islam was and what it demands from ppl. True faith needs questioning and logic and thats what Quran wants. In more than 100 verses in Quran, Allah asks ppl to use their brains to observe the universe and living creatures. There are many miracles in Quran with scientific information which was not available at that time.

Islam is different than Christianity as Quran stayed unchanged and untampered. The christian world needed to put a distance with the dogmatic teachings of The Catholic Church to flourish, your ancestors escaped to America from religious oppression which is very rare in Muslim history. In 16th century running Jews escaping from Spanish inquisition seek refuge in Ottoman Empire and they were granted. The muslim world in time made a mistake of getting away from the spirit of Quran and Islam thus once being the pillar of the human civilization, now we are poorly educated and a weak shadow of our past.

Freedom of speech is a good thing as long as it is not abused. Just like anything else it can be abused, in this specific example, I did some search tonight. The incident happened in early Septemper, 11 muslim countries gave a letter to Denmark asking for an apology. It wasnt given. Recently some other newspapers in France started to use it aswell and thats how things escalated. In no way any form of violance can be tolerated as one of the main criterias in Islamic law is the guilt only binds the guilty and cant be extended to other ppl even if they are their familiy unless they participated in it. However common sense strictly advises that responsible ppl especially taking into consideration of today's real politik,should try not to escalate things.Our probhet is dear to us, dearer than our families, dearer than our countries. Anyone with little common sense shouldnt allow or defend an INSULT against him. If i have to give an example i will tell u this, if u see someone playing with fire near a gas station what would u do? Would u say he has the freedom to play with fire altho there is a risk of liting the Gas station even tho he didnt inted to do so or would you tell him hey bro, playing with fire near a gas station is a dangerous thing, you should be more careful. Thats what I mean by common sense and i am happy to see there are such ppl in the world who see this the way i describe. Today both Putin and Chirac said Denmark should apologize. Norway is sending a delegation to Muslim countries with an apology letter. We need peace and mutual respect in the world not warmongers.

Denmark is already being economically boycotted and in Danish newspapers their PM is strongly critisized ironicly with cartoons. I do hope this incident will not cause any more violance and will be settled soon.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stavrose @ Feb 8 2006, 05:49 PM) [snapback]41659[/snapback][/center]
Its just reek trying to force his beliefs upon everyone else, as usual. God forbid someone sees things otherwise, he or she becomes an "idiot"
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I have to disagree with you here. The message came across as his point of view, not trying to force it on me. I do know the difference. I live in the Bible Belt and one of the major preacher training schools in the south is here, right outside of town. Another major major religious college is 20 mins away across the state line, and that one is more like a cult than a religion, even though they swear that they're Baptist (which I mostly am.) Your point of view during an intellectual discussion is not necessarily "trying to force his beliefs upon everyone else," although the name calling gets on my nerves. I had convinced myself that the Wanderhome community was above that, I guess. I am rather enjoying this discussion, regardless.
 
Well, considering that my original post didn't even mention reeks name, and didn't namecall anyone, and he then turned around, took it, and started calling me a fucking idiot cause he disagreed is forceable enough for me
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lpb8733 @ Feb 8 2006, 04:03 PM) [snapback]41680[/snapback][/center]
one of the major preacher training schools in the south is here, right outside of town.
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When I read this I had visions of guys in closed collars and combat boots running in formation yelling "Hail Mary" in unison...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hakan @ Feb 8 2006, 03:58 PM) [snapback]41674[/snapback][/center]
your ancestors escaped to America from religious oppression which is very rare in Muslim history[/b]
It is rare, in the muslim world they rarely escape before they are killed. ;)
 
Ok so I can't leave well enough alone, but I found this blurb on CNN to kinda emphasizes my point

Still, Bin Laden and his followers have been appealing to poor and politically and educationally disenfranchised Muslims for years to stand up for their faith in a radical way. Looking at a world map right now, I wonder how many people out there are listening to them and using this dispute as an excuse to further radical Islam's war on the West.[/b]

Religion isn't for the educated per say. Religion was an arcaic form of government set to establish rules and to bring order to the unorderly. The fear of "God" or whatever prophet or diety you worship was to be used as rules and consequences for anyone who decided to act out of line. Power was found in the manner and through out time priests, buddist monks, immams, so forth used the faith of individuals to control/manipulate them. In the medevil times cardinals had more power then a king himself and through that power he was able to control the outcome of anything and those that did not worship under God were inferior and pursicuted. Thats why the US has the seperation of church and state. It strips the power away from the churches and gives it to the rightful government.

Keep in mind Christianity in its hay day was no better than Islamic extrimists and to this day Christianity breeds extremism (I site the scary lady from "Trading Spouses"), just not in the abudance it once did.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stavrose @ Feb 8 2006, 06:05 PM) [snapback]41681[/snapback][/center]
Well, considering that my original post didn't even mention reeks name, and didn't namecall anyone, and he then turned around, took it, and started calling me a fucking idiot cause he disagreed is forceable enough for me
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Aww, did Stavrose get called a bad name? Did Stavrose perhaps read why I called him a fucking idiot? Perhaps it was because he told me to "grow up"?

Practice what you preach, hypocrite.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(reek @ Feb 8 2006, 05:03 PM) [snapback]41749[/snapback][/center]
Aww, did Stavrose get called a bad name? Did Stavrose perhaps read why I called him a fucking idiot? Perhaps it was because he told me to "grow up"?

Practice what you preach, hypocrite.
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And you went and put the hat on.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Artica @ Feb 8 2006, 05:22 PM) [snapback]41650[/snapback][/center]
That is how I'm getting it.
Then a couple of posts below*, he changed his point of view to contradict you.
This is what I'm understanding from Reek's argument.[/b]
Then you don't understand my argument. I have been consistent the entire thread. I have said 100 times that people should have the freedom to express themselves however they see fit. I also said very early on that it's well within others' rights to protest against people they disagree with. Peaceful protest = free speech. I don't understand why you can't understand my argument. Let me see if I can make it simpler:

Violence over a cartoon = wrong.
Printing a cartoon insulting a religion = doesn't matter if it is right or wrong, it is within that paper's rights to do so. Denmark should not and can not apologize for it because it was a private newspaper, which is not controlled by the government and not representative of the government.

You can feel that the newspaper should apologize, that's ok with me. And of course it is completely up to them to do so if they wish. That would be the same as expecting me to apologize for calling Stavrose a dumb fuck. But you can't expect the United States Government to apologize for me calling Stavrose a dumb fuck.

Government should make no law prohibiting freedom of expression.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(reek @ Feb 8 2006, 07:03 PM) [snapback]41749[/snapback][/center]
Aww, did Stavrose get called a bad name? Did Stavrose perhaps read why I called him a fucking idiot? Perhaps it was because he told me to "grow up"?

Practice what you preach, hypocrite.
[/b]


you're a tool. when did i mention your name in my post? kkthxbye
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(reek @ Feb 9 2006, 11:15 AM) [snapback]41756[/snapback][/center]
Then you don't understand my argument. I have been consistent the entire thread. I have said 100 times that people should have the freedom to express themselves however they see fit. I also said very early on that it's well within others' rights to protest against people they disagree with. Peaceful protest = free speech. I don't understand why you can't understand my argument. Let me see if I can make it simpler:

Violence over a cartoon = wrong.
Printing a cartoon insulting a religion = doesn't matter if it is right or wrong, it is within that paper's rights to do so. Denmark should not and can not apologize for it because it was a private newspaper, which is not controlled by the government and not representative of the government.

You can feel that the newspaper should apologize, that's ok with me. And of course it is completely up to them to do so if they wish. That would be the same as expecting me to apologize for calling Stavrose a dumb fuck. But you can't expect the United States Government to apologize for me calling Stavrose a dumb fuck.

Government should make no law prohibiting freedom of expression.
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In real life there is no white or black mostly, the color is almost always grey and thats why u need common sense. Anyways you can keep yr idea to yrself and just hope u dont encounter an other Mc Carthy era altho it seems its more than a possibility atm for the U.S with this new home security stuff.

And for god's sake, get over it neither u nor yr ideas or yr insults are as important as 2 billion muslims and our probhet.

World has many different cultures and many different ways of life. If you want to live in world with other ppl, u have to respect them but why I am even bothering, your country is acting just like I say with this incident. And i didnt see anyone supporting the violance regarding this matter. Am i wrong or is reek arguing for nothing?

Like I said there are 2 kinds of faith and altho its always easier to manipulate poorly educated ppl, its also easy to manipulate even educated ppl under right circumstances just like it happened in Germany. True intellectuals like Speer fell to same trap just as easily as a standart national socialist german. Oh and quotes from Karl Marx, what did u expect an ateist would say? Especially one who was the father of Communism.I love the way how he describes the 1st human life coming fm apes.:P
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hakan @ Feb 8 2006, 08:48 PM) [snapback]41763[/snapback][/center]
And for god's sake, get over it neither u nor yr ideas or yr insults are as important as 2 billion muslims and our probhet. [/b]
There's the heart of the problem. You believe in a utilitarian system wherein the majority rules over all else. Individual rights are not important if they conflict with the majority.

I believe in a system where individual rights are not sacrificed for the majority.

In other words, yes, my opinion is just as important as 2 billion muslims, and their opinions are just as important as mine. Just because 2 billion muslims may feel differently than I, it does not mean I do not have a right to my opinion. That's the greatness of free speech - it protects the minority.
 
Fairly amusing, today Condoleeza Rice blamed Iran and Sryia for the mass protests and violence from the cartoon...and inciting hated in the world

Bush seriously needs to get on tv right now and say i wanna war with Iran .. itll save another year of bs stories that are really getting on my nerves.


I just hope he doesnt involve our goddam idiot of a prime minister this time in his war mongering.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(reek @ Feb 9 2006, 12:07 PM) [snapback]41769[/snapback][/center]
There's the heart of the problem. You believe in a utilitarian system wherein the majority rules over all else. Individual rights are not important if they conflict with the majority.

I believe in a system where individual rights are not sacrificed for the majority.

In other words, yes, my opinion is just as important as 2 billion muslims, and their opinions are just as important as mine. Just because 2 billion muslims may feel differently than I, it does not mean I do not have a right to my opinion. That's the greatness of free speech - it protects the minority.
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Nah i was just making a reference to yr comparision. Why is it always so hard for you to understand?You are advocating the right to insult others for freedom of speech and giving retarted examples. Anyways like I said then you need to find an other country or try to work to change yr country as yr country's officials tend to chose the opposite approach regarding this incident. Good luck with it.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Esinoth @ Feb 9 2006, 12:11 PM) [snapback]41771[/snapback][/center]
Fairly amusing, today Condoleeza Rice blamed Iran and Sryia for the mass protests and violence from the cartoon...and inciting hated in the world

Bush seriously needs to get on tv right now and say i wanna war with Iran .. itll save another year of bs stories that are really getting on my nerves.
I just hope he doesnt involve our goddam idiot of a prime minister this time in his war mongering.
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While I admit that the reason (that i wasnt even in agreence on) for going into Iraq was horrible, Iran is not Iraq. The world is on the same level on Iran. They are a huge threat to any country in that region if they obtain a nuclear status.

Theres no BS stories from Bush on this one because he echoing every other country on this one and when Irans biggest supporters Russia and China support a resolution, warning bells should be going off.

You can call whomever an idiot all you want but Tony Blair is actually a very intelligent individual and Id take him over Bush (yes I voted for Bush....twice).

Call it warmongering all you want, sometimes you cant make an omlet without breaking some eggs and if Europe honestly thought they would be immune to attacks even if the Iraq war didn't happen, you're sorely mistaken. It was just a matter of time and an excuse to attack. I have nothing against Europeans and I have a lot of friends from Germany, England, and *sigh* yes even France, but if those goverments cant get off their asses and admit there is a serious problem and act on it they'll be prime pickings. Look at France and their banning of the Islamic scarfs for women, the riots that have happened there, the disdain and hatred English Islamists have against Britain, and the staging grounds in Germany.

Find it amusing that Iran and Syria are are blamed for the riots? Perhaps then Iran stating that theyll hold their own competition to challenge the resolve of the west? Immans in both countries crying for the destruction of anyone that does not adhere to Islamic beliefs and neither country doing anything to subdue that, even though Iran and Syria have a very hard stance against free speech? Yeah, I think shes in the right.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hakan @ Feb 8 2006, 08:48 PM) [snapback]41763[/snapback][/center]
In real life there is no white or black mostly, the color is almost always grey and thats why u need common sense. Anyways you can keep yr idea to yrself and just hope u dont encounter an other Mc Carthy era altho it seems its more than a possibility atm for the U.S with this new home security stuff.

And for god's sake, get over it neither u nor yr ideas or yr insults are as important as 2 billion muslims and our probhet.

World has many different cultures and many different ways of life. If you want to live in world with other ppl, u have to respect them but why I am even bothering, your country is acting just like I say with this incident. And i didnt see anyone supporting the violance regarding this matter. Am i wrong or is reek arguing for nothing?

Like I said there are 2 kinds of faith and altho its always easier to manipulate poorly educated ppl, its also easy to manipulate even educated ppl under right circumstances just like it happened in Germany. True intellectuals like Speer fell to same trap just as easily as a standart national socialist german. Oh and quotes from Karl Marx, what did u expect an ateist would say? Especially one who was the father of Communism.I love the way how he describes the 1st human life coming fm apes.:P
[/b]

I have to admit I'm seeing a different side of Hakan here, on I'm not used to seeing.
Regardless of whether I agree with his viewpoint or not, no one can claim he doesn't argue his point intelligently.
Guess that just goes to show you can't really judge someone by what you see by their forum posts huh?

I haven't weighed in on this topic yet, but I guess I'll throw my .02 in.
First off I'm coming from the perspective of a Canadian (who are widely held to be very tolerant of other faiths, sometimes maybe even to a fault, we don't subsbribe to a "melting pot" philosophy for example) who was schooled in Catholic schools, so no doubt my teachings were influenced by even a slight bias.

Havinmg said that, there is a significant difference between faith and religion.
To me faith is about ideals and core beliefs, and religion is about expression and guidelines.

No question that the basis of our laws and rules that govern how we interact with one another is deeply influenced by the predominant religions in the area in question.

Without religion, morality would be an individual determination, (and in many respects even with religions, it still is) and the way in which we interact with one another would be radically different.

The danger with religions, with any religion, is exactly as Hakan stated, it can used as a means to manipulate those that subscribe to it blindly.

Its not a Muslim thing, its apparent in every religion.

Protestants and Catholics have been killing each other for decades.
Muslims and Jews, Jews and Christians, Christians and Muslims....

This is why I have problems with generalizations which paint an entire faith with the same brush.

Sadly too there are those whose violent retaliations have nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with opportunism.

Consider similar events not even linked to religion such as the Watts riots or the looting in New Orleans after the devastation.

Yes I do believe that the newspaper had the right to publish those cartoons.
I also believe strongly that the government of Denmark has no place in censoring or limiting the media in that country.
To do otherwise is to open a door to an Orwellian type of governance which I think everyone agrees is the last place we want to go.

On the other hand, the reaction to this was most definately predictable.

There exists within the Muslim world, groups that advocate this type of action against infidels, and these groups seize on any opportunity like this to advance their message.

In the end, the only thing thats really missing here is understanding.

Understanding by the paper in question of the repercussions its choice would bring, and understanding by these radicals that every action by those outside the Muslim world is not a directed affront against Mohammed or Allah.

Its a sad situation but one that will continue long after all of us are gone.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hakan @ Feb 8 2006, 07:48 PM) [snapback]41763[/snapback][/center]
In real life there is no white or black mostly, the color is almost always grey and thats why u need common sense. Anyways you can keep yr idea to yrself and just hope u dont encounter an other Mc Carthy era altho it seems its more than a possibility atm for the U.S with this new home security stuff.

And for god's sake, get over it neither u nor yr ideas or yr insults are as important as 2 billion muslims and our probhet.

World has many different cultures and many different ways of life. If you want to live in world with other ppl, u have to respect them but why I am even bothering, your country is acting just like I say with this incident. And i didnt see anyone supporting the violance regarding this matter. Am i wrong or is reek arguing for nothing?

Like I said there are 2 kinds of faith and altho its always easier to manipulate poorly educated ppl, its also easy to manipulate even educated ppl under right circumstances just like it happened in Germany. True intellectuals like Speer fell to same trap just as easily as a standart national socialist german. Oh and quotes from Karl Marx, what did u expect an ateist would say? Especially one who was the father of Communism.I love the way how he describes the 1st human life coming fm apes.:P
[/b]

I no longer need to support myself as a true Muslim can prove certain points better than i can, since i'm nut fully knowledgable in the practice of Islam.
 
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