To All Those Muslims Burning & Protesting That Cartoon

The Bottom Line:

Seculars view this as freedom of the press.
Muslims view this as a violation of their deepest religious belief.

Remember, protests didn't just happen in the Middle East. They went all the way to India and to central Africa. So its not just your average "arabs" protesting
 
As yuo portray Freedom of Speech, it will eventually lead to Anarchy. With no rules or values governments wouldn't exist.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Artica @ Feb 8 2006, 12:47 PM) [snapback]41498[/snapback][/center]
Don't you understand Reek? You are just being an ass with that. Yes, I agree with Freedom of Speech. But you also gotta have a head to use it. You can't go bashing everyone. In the end you'll get a lot of enemies. You have to apply values as well. Be considerate of others.
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How am I being an ass?

And do we really need to bring up the slippery slope argument?

What defines "bashing everyone"?
What is insulting?

OK, depicting Muhammed in a cartoon with a bomb for a hat is insulting. Burning an American flag, to me, is among the most insulting displays of expression I can think of. Should that be disallowed because I'm insulted? What if someone is a Wiccan and finds depictions of witches on broomsticks insulting? Should we allow that?

You don't understand apparently, that freedom of expression protects the minority from the majority. It means that no matter how small your voice is, you can express it, even if the majority of the people do not agree with it. It allows for women to argue that they should have the right to vote. It allows black people to march on Washington to demand equal rights. It allows the KKK to say they think black people and jews are destroying the country. It allows everyone to say, "hey that's bullshit KKK, and here's why."
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(reek @ Feb 9 2006, 03:41 AM) [snapback]41493[/snapback][/center]
Explain. I am taking a side, which is advocating freedom of expression.

In the United States we are free to insult any religion we wish. I am able to call the President of the United States a pig fucker if I want. Do you think we have anarchy in the United States?
But isn't that an insult? And you've certainly insulted the hell out of me before. Shouldn't you not be able to insult me by your own argument?
Oh this is going to be good. Please explain how the 2nd World War started.
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Erm calling u a hypocrite or liar is like calling milk white. Its not an insult, its a fact. You still dont get it after all these times even after Draeke told you long ago. I dont enter into arguments. I dont feel i have to convince anyone. Hehe funny how you accuse ppl for still flaming you and still trying to start shit with me altho i stay away from it as i promised myself that I will not flame anyone anymore.

And world war started coz Hitler wanted to use other nation's resources. He called it living space.

For your info world is not consisting of U.S. only and if you didnt notice ppl have different cultures, beliefs and religions.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Artica @ Feb 8 2006, 12:49 PM) [snapback]41502[/snapback][/center]
As yuo portray Freedom of Speech, it will eventually lead to Anarchy. With no rules or values governments wouldn't exist.
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Freedom of expression, to me, is a value. In fact it's the most beloved value a government can have. I'm not protraying it any different than what's already in the United States Constitution. I don't understand how freedom of speech leads to anarchy or no rules. Murder is not free speech. Stealing is not free speech. There are rules against them. In the United States we have a ton of laws, some of which even limit our free expression to a small extent (ie, you can't shout fire! in a crowded theater and cause a stampede). We also have the freedom to express our beliefs. When someone asks us to draw a cartoon depicting how we view Islam, we are free to paint Muhammed with a bomb for a turban. A lot of Americans may not like that portrayal, but I'll be damned if I'm going to impede on someone else's right to express himself just because my values might be different from his.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hakan @ Feb 8 2006, 01:02 PM) [snapback]41508[/snapback][/center]
For your info world is not consisting of U.S. only and if you didnt notice ppl have different cultures, beliefs and religions.
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Yep, and those people should be able to express their cultures, beliefs, and religion without fear of being silenced by someone who might find them insulting.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(reek @ Feb 9 2006, 04:07 AM) [snapback]41509[/snapback][/center]
Freedom of expression, to me, is a value. In fact it's the most beloved value a government can have. I'm not protraying it any different than what's already in the United States Constitution. I don't understand how freedom of speech leads to anarchy or no rules. Murder is not free speech. Stealing is not free speech. There are rules against them. In the United States we have a ton of laws, some of which even limit our free expression to a small extent (ie, you can't shout fire! in a crowded theater and cause a stampede). We also have the freedom to express our beliefs. When someone asks us to draw a cartoon depicting how we view Islam, we are free to paint Muhammed with a bomb for a turban. A lot of Americans may not like that portrayal, but I'll be damned if I'm going to impede on someone else's right to express himself just because my values might be different from his.
Yep, and those people should be able to express their cultures, beliefs, and religion without fear of being silenced by someone who might find them insulting.
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There is something called common sense. Either you lack it or just argue for the sake of it.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(reek @ Feb 8 2006, 01:07 PM) [snapback]41509[/snapback][/center]
Freedom of expression, to me, is a value. In fact it's the most beloved value a government can have. I'm not protraying it any different than what's already in the United States Constitution. I don't understand how freedom of speech leads to anarchy or no rules. Murder is not free speech. Stealing is not free speech. There are rules against them. In the United States we have a ton of laws, some of which even limit our free expression to a small extent (ie, you can't shout fire! in a crowded theater and cause a stampede). We also have the freedom to express our beliefs. When someone asks us to draw a cartoon depicting how we view Islam, we are free to paint Muhammed with a bomb for a turban. A lot of Americans may not like that portrayal, but I'll be damned if I'm going to impede on someone else's right to express himself just because my values might be different from his.
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I agree with you on this and thanks to the internet and my country I can say that.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hakan @ Feb 8 2006, 01:14 PM) [snapback]41510[/snapback][/center]
There is something called common sense. Either you lack it or just argue for the sake of it.
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Yes and there's something called freedom. Either you have it or you don't. Trust me, having it is a wonderful thing.
 
I'll just be honest, I've always had it and I always assume I will... its times when I talk to Irjam knowing he has been over fighting for our country that I realize its not as "free" as I think it is.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Artica @ Feb 8 2006, 01:41 PM) [snapback]41521[/snapback][/center]
As does Reek.
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Who did you say was being an ass? You don't know what I take for granted.

All you know is that I feel very strongly that people should be able to express themselves, even if some people may find that expression offensive.
 
Close mindedness towards the outside world is something American's are best at. Gotta love the American tourist in Europe who thinks they're the best thing since sliced bread. No wonder the world hates us.

Quit viewing this from YOUR perspective. Just cause YOU don't do it doesn't make it right. Have a broader view on ethics and morals for fucks sake, you're not the only one that exists in the world. Quit preaching what is right and what is wrong, cause it doesnt apply to the rest of the world. If you want to go make political cartoons that bash the core value of Muslims, go ahead, just be sure to accept the consequences of it. And burning an American flag is definately not that serious to what is happening. it can't be comparable, quit using it as an example. The American flag is not some holy and sacred symbol in all americans that we'd kill for. I'd rather kill to save my family before i killed to prevent someone from burning an american flag. Muslims would kill to defend their religion before killing to save their family. thats how the world works. Grow up, adapt a more world-centric view, and quit trying to preach right from wrong cause YOU believe it.
 
As far as just in America, I am totally for free speech. Now if you want to hire someone for something illegal, nobody is going to duct tape your mouth shut, but they WILL use it as evidence to prove you were attemping to do something illegal.

For at a theatre just saying "Fire" in itself isn't necessarily a bad thing. Yelling it and causing trouble though will. It is seen more as a violation of a law than just saying something bad or offensive. Why not set off a siren or alarm in the middle of the theatre when there is no danger, you would probably get the same result without even having to use words.

Now there are small things of censorship like laws against public nudity and excessive swearing, but who wants to see a naked 300 pound wrinkly grandma with saggy boobs smoking weed or drinking and saying obscene things to Salvation army volunteers in front of a 7-11 (or other store)?

There are definately some things that are censored, but from my viewpoint it is hard to argue with them. I've lived with these rules most my life and they seem to make sense. If they weren't there though, the only one I see problems with is using speech to do illegal things. In most countries it is a standard to wear at least some form of clothing. As far as swearing, I have no idea how other countries handle that. You can get sued here though, whether or not there are actual laws against it.

Now I never saw this cartoon, and I don't even know what publication it is in, but I don't care how offensive it is it does not justify violence. If someone yells insults at you, and you beat them to a pulp, you're the one who got carried away. You could just add people to your "ignore list" :) Nobody is forcing you to read the damn cartoon. It's like looking at porn. If you see some porn by accident while surfing a warez website, are you going to burn down the website owner's house? Arson is a crime, so if you would, have fun in prison.

If I see that ugly naked grandma cussing me out, I'm not going to beat her to a pulp, I'm just going to leave the area very quickly.

These people are just getting carried away. As people have said before, some Muslims are going to cause problems and resort to violence, just as some Christians do. It's just part of the group, not the whole group.

Now if they want to protest, I'd freaking let them. That's also freedom of speech. But if they want to protest with directed gunfire and explosions then they need to be dealt with. Nobody should die over a damn cartoon.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stavrose @ Feb 9 2006, 05:10 AM) [snapback]41535[/snapback][/center]
Close mindedness towards the outside world is something American's are best at. Gotta love the American tourist in Europe who thinks they're the best thing since sliced bread. No wonder the world hates us.

Quit viewing this from YOUR perspective. Just cause YOU don't do it doesn't make it right. Have a broader view on ethics and morals for fucks sake, you're not the only one that exists in the world. Quit preaching what is right and what is wrong, cause it doesnt apply to the rest of the world. If you want to go make political cartoons that bash the core value of Muslims, go ahead, just be sure to accept the consequences of it. And burning an American flag is definately not that serious to what is happening. it can't be comparable, quit using it as an example. The American flag is not some holy and sacred symbol in all americans that we'd kill for. I'd rather kill to save my family before i killed to prevent someone from burning an american flag. Muslims would kill to defend their religion before killing to save their family. thats how the world works. Grow up, adapt a more world-centric view, and quit trying to preach right from wrong cause YOU believe it.
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Ever been to a VFW meeting? Not that I disagree with you in the slightest, just there are Americans tha will kill at the mere thought of flag burning. :(

Damn, I was really trying hard to stay out of this thread...
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Fluffy @ Feb 8 2006, 01:13 PM) [snapback]41538[/snapback][/center]
Ever been to a VFW meeting? Not that I disagree with you in the slightest, just there are Americans tha will kill at the mere thought of flag burning. :(

Damn, I was really trying hard to stay out of this thread...
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Yeah, but it isn't a core value amongst ALL americans, as an image of Mohammed is amongst ALL Muslims
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stavrose @ Feb 9 2006, 05:14 AM) [snapback]41539[/snapback][/center]
Yeah, but it isn't a core value amongst ALL americans, as an image of Mohammed is amongst ALL Muslims
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I am pretty sure that comic did not offend ALL muslims to a state of violence.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stavrose @ Feb 9 2006, 05:18 AM) [snapback]41544[/snapback][/center]
Islamists resorted to violence. Mainstream rioted.
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Right, but not all of them. You burn an American flag in downtown Dallas and you will have some mainstream rioting there too.
 
Yes it would be offensive to all (or almost all) Muslims. But like Fluffly said it probably hasn't offended them all to a "state of violence".

Just like if you have an offensive picture of Jesus in a major publication, not all Christians are going to go their gun cabinets. In fact, I don't think many would at all.

Arguing over something is fine, because that is 2 groups using their free speech. it's a sort of compromise. Like this - I'll listen to your shit, but you also have to listen to mine.

But when it comes down to violence, then it's like - well you killed my friend over this stupid thing, so now I have to do something to either keep you under control or keep this from happening again (or even try to get revenge depending on the person/group).
 
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