USS Liberty
- Thread starter Hakan
- Start date
Esinoth
New member
Humm i dont think any1 can disagree that the west is guilty of lies and misleading. I think bush would say anything humanly possible to the american public to achieve the desired affect.
However in the west i think democracy prevents any1 from doing anything too rediculous..the west is suppost to be civilised and anything that is not, people are never allowed to know about
The west finds loop holes in the law and gets around convensional forms of barbaric behaviour..in the middle east im fairly sure that torture is a well know means of punishment..cutting a theifs arm off is a well displayed form of punishment..however i doubt youd ever see a western government take that form of action in todays civilised societey. For example there are prisoners being tortured in Guantanamo, they arent suppost to be being tortured but they are by "non physical means," its still torture and its still happening. Difference is that over here ignorance is bliss and people wont complain if they dont know its happening.
In the east its a well known fact its happening..and i dont think its because muslims are naturally nasty people i think its because they are led by religion too much. If you lead your life by religious law you dont ever advance as a culture to the civilised way of the modern way.
For example in america there was a christian man (very religious and all round nice guy) and he went and shot a doctor coming out of his clinic because he was helping woman have abortions. This man killed another man in the name of religion. By religious law im pretty sure that this man was considered innocent and by his friends he was seen as doing the right thing..however in todays civilised societey you cannot kill another man for that reason...its considered barbaric and inhuman.
In the east barbaric acts and human suffering is considered perfectly normal if its in the name of religion and im saying that if people take religion so strongly your gonna be living in the middle ages while the rest of the world develops.
To me life is the most important thing imaginable...and anything that conflicts with that is not important to me, id renounce god 10 times if it meant being able to save one life. I would never take another life in the name of religion or for any other reason. I feel genuinly sorry for people that think that they can do whatever they want in this life because after it they are going somewhere better.
I would love to know how differently people would live if they found that the ticket of life is for one journey only.
However in the west i think democracy prevents any1 from doing anything too rediculous..the west is suppost to be civilised and anything that is not, people are never allowed to know about
The west finds loop holes in the law and gets around convensional forms of barbaric behaviour..in the middle east im fairly sure that torture is a well know means of punishment..cutting a theifs arm off is a well displayed form of punishment..however i doubt youd ever see a western government take that form of action in todays civilised societey. For example there are prisoners being tortured in Guantanamo, they arent suppost to be being tortured but they are by "non physical means," its still torture and its still happening. Difference is that over here ignorance is bliss and people wont complain if they dont know its happening.
In the east its a well known fact its happening..and i dont think its because muslims are naturally nasty people i think its because they are led by religion too much. If you lead your life by religious law you dont ever advance as a culture to the civilised way of the modern way.
For example in america there was a christian man (very religious and all round nice guy) and he went and shot a doctor coming out of his clinic because he was helping woman have abortions. This man killed another man in the name of religion. By religious law im pretty sure that this man was considered innocent and by his friends he was seen as doing the right thing..however in todays civilised societey you cannot kill another man for that reason...its considered barbaric and inhuman.
In the east barbaric acts and human suffering is considered perfectly normal if its in the name of religion and im saying that if people take religion so strongly your gonna be living in the middle ages while the rest of the world develops.
To me life is the most important thing imaginable...and anything that conflicts with that is not important to me, id renounce god 10 times if it meant being able to save one life. I would never take another life in the name of religion or for any other reason. I feel genuinly sorry for people that think that they can do whatever they want in this life because after it they are going somewhere better.
I would love to know how differently people would live if they found that the ticket of life is for one journey only.
Hakan
.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(reek @ Feb 11 2006, 02:08 AM) [snapback]42919[/snapback][/center]
In a country where there is freedom of speech and after so many years why the plea of her crew for an investigation is denied? What does freedom of speech means when you can so blatantly ignore such a grave incident to hide the truth?
Justice and fairness doesnt take into consideration who is your ally, you cant want justice for yourself and deny it to someone who is your enemy.
Moon read Admiral Moorer's statement, he explains why he thinks Israel attacked USS Liberty.
Friendly fire happens all the time, its the reality of warfare, however when it happens its still investigated. In this case it happened in an all clear sky day, the vessel which was attacked was a recon vessel which is impossible to mix with any other vessel. Its not a ground a target where its easy to misjudge targets. Furthermore the vessel was attacked by torpedo boats and aircraft for 40 mins, torpedo boats opened machinegun fire at life rafts which can be considered as a war crime.
More importantly US aircraft deployed to come to aid of USS Liberty not once but twice but they are recalled by orders of McNamara and Johnson.
In this case its not public opinion, some of the very highest ranked officials of US government, Navy and intelligence agencies clearly state the act was deliberate. Including deputy director of NSA, saying the Israeli aircraft knew the vessel was American according to their radio messages. These people are not random ppl, we are talking about your governments highest officials. Why did your President ordered that the verdict of the inquiry should be accident?
If US can lie about an attack to her own soldiers what else she can lie for?If American ppl can forgive and forget an attack to your own countryman in the name of protecting your ally, what else you can do for that?
I will bring more facts about Middle East and show how its not a religion matter. USS Liberty was my opening evidence which is an important one to show how US can ignore facts about Israel even when its her own countrymen who died, the very men who were protecting her, the very men who were denied a rescue attempt by your president. If you can live with such a shame, such a betrayal, its your own choice but atleast you can stop to pretend like you are sincere and want justice and freedom for world.
Now dont misunderstand me, i am not trying to show terrorist attacks right, I despise them. But I can see the logic behind it. And you need to see the logic behind it if you want a solution. True you can continue of your gang-ho attitude, you can continue to believe you are all mighty, you can continue to think you are undefeatable till you face an other Vietnam, and who knows in what disguise your next Vietnam is hidden.
In a country where there is freedom of speech and after so many years why the plea of her crew for an investigation is denied? What does freedom of speech means when you can so blatantly ignore such a grave incident to hide the truth?
Justice and fairness doesnt take into consideration who is your ally, you cant want justice for yourself and deny it to someone who is your enemy.
Moon read Admiral Moorer's statement, he explains why he thinks Israel attacked USS Liberty.
Friendly fire happens all the time, its the reality of warfare, however when it happens its still investigated. In this case it happened in an all clear sky day, the vessel which was attacked was a recon vessel which is impossible to mix with any other vessel. Its not a ground a target where its easy to misjudge targets. Furthermore the vessel was attacked by torpedo boats and aircraft for 40 mins, torpedo boats opened machinegun fire at life rafts which can be considered as a war crime.
More importantly US aircraft deployed to come to aid of USS Liberty not once but twice but they are recalled by orders of McNamara and Johnson.
In this case its not public opinion, some of the very highest ranked officials of US government, Navy and intelligence agencies clearly state the act was deliberate. Including deputy director of NSA, saying the Israeli aircraft knew the vessel was American according to their radio messages. These people are not random ppl, we are talking about your governments highest officials. Why did your President ordered that the verdict of the inquiry should be accident?
If US can lie about an attack to her own soldiers what else she can lie for?If American ppl can forgive and forget an attack to your own countryman in the name of protecting your ally, what else you can do for that?
I will bring more facts about Middle East and show how its not a religion matter. USS Liberty was my opening evidence which is an important one to show how US can ignore facts about Israel even when its her own countrymen who died, the very men who were protecting her, the very men who were denied a rescue attempt by your president. If you can live with such a shame, such a betrayal, its your own choice but atleast you can stop to pretend like you are sincere and want justice and freedom for world.
Now dont misunderstand me, i am not trying to show terrorist attacks right, I despise them. But I can see the logic behind it. And you need to see the logic behind it if you want a solution. True you can continue of your gang-ho attitude, you can continue to believe you are all mighty, you can continue to think you are undefeatable till you face an other Vietnam, and who knows in what disguise your next Vietnam is hidden.
Merlyn
Thrawn's pretty pretty play thing
I don't know much about this particular incident but not too long ago American soldiers shot at a car carrying Canadian diplomats. Fortunately no one was hurt but the two sides tell completely different stories about how and why this happened. Who is right and who is wrong?
How can you ever know the real truth? There is so much spin and lies put on all these incidents it's just down right impossible to find the truth the real truth under all the BS.
How can you ever know the real truth? There is so much spin and lies put on all these incidents it's just down right impossible to find the truth the real truth under all the BS.
Hakan
.
Esinoth pls dont come with claims a first graders can come with. Its obvious you have no clue what you are talking about. Just generalisation. I am not here to defend terrorism and/or torture. They are crimes to humanity and they are sins.
World balance of power shifts constantly, Does Rome rings a bell? Does Ottoman empire rings a bell? Or better does U.K. rings a bell?
Torture and terror has got nothing to do with religion. Its all about a power struggle. Just like in Ireland, Your fellow Irishmen bombs London, ppl in US supports them. Wake up. It happens everywhere. And unless you can go to source of problem it will not be solved.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Merlyn @ Feb 11 2006, 08:00 AM) [snapback]43365[/snapback][/center]
Simple make an investigation, when investigation is denied, when the president of the country orders that the inquiry should outcome accident, it means one thing, cover-up. The worst lie one can say is to himself.
World balance of power shifts constantly, Does Rome rings a bell? Does Ottoman empire rings a bell? Or better does U.K. rings a bell?
Torture and terror has got nothing to do with religion. Its all about a power struggle. Just like in Ireland, Your fellow Irishmen bombs London, ppl in US supports them. Wake up. It happens everywhere. And unless you can go to source of problem it will not be solved.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Merlyn @ Feb 11 2006, 08:00 AM) [snapback]43365[/snapback][/center]
Simple make an investigation, when investigation is denied, when the president of the country orders that the inquiry should outcome accident, it means one thing, cover-up. The worst lie one can say is to himself.
Merlyn
Thrawn's pretty pretty play thing
Cover ups ...
everyone lies to save their butts. I don't think we ever really know the true way of things no matter how many investigations there are and when we do find out what really happened it is usually twenty years too late.
What i find remarkable is that the Bush Governent seems to make a go of lying to the populace and it is readily accepted without a lot of question but Clinton has a sex scandal and all holy hell breaks loose.
Now I have to ask what does this say about the general populace?
Governments lie. Politicians lie.
everyone lies to save their butts. I don't think we ever really know the true way of things no matter how many investigations there are and when we do find out what really happened it is usually twenty years too late.
What i find remarkable is that the Bush Governent seems to make a go of lying to the populace and it is readily accepted without a lot of question but Clinton has a sex scandal and all holy hell breaks loose.
Now I have to ask what does this say about the general populace?
Governments lie. Politicians lie.
Merlyn
Thrawn's pretty pretty play thing
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hakan @ Feb 10 2006, 11:12 PM) [snapback]43373[/snapback][/center]
I admire your faith in this , but from experience most peopel in power do not seem too keen to give that up and will do pretty much anything they can to maintain it.
That is not to say they don'tget caught from time to time but ....
I admire your faith in this , but from experience most peopel in power do not seem too keen to give that up and will do pretty much anything they can to maintain it.
That is not to say they don'tget caught from time to time but ....
Hakan
.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Merlyn @ Feb 11 2006, 08:14 AM) [snapback]43374[/snapback][/center]
For me most important thing on life when i see my face on the mirror I shouldnt be ashamed fm myself. We are all humans, we r destined to err, make mistakes, even injustice. But we also have the ability to return from it, we have the ability to apologize and ammend our mistakes, thats what makes us humans.
Its nnormal sometimes our vision is clouded, either from anger, hatred or the values at hand which we want to gain or not to lose, but when u r going to sleep, u can judge yrself. ANd yr heart will tell u the truth.
For me most important thing on life when i see my face on the mirror I shouldnt be ashamed fm myself. We are all humans, we r destined to err, make mistakes, even injustice. But we also have the ability to return from it, we have the ability to apologize and ammend our mistakes, thats what makes us humans.
Its nnormal sometimes our vision is clouded, either from anger, hatred or the values at hand which we want to gain or not to lose, but when u r going to sleep, u can judge yrself. ANd yr heart will tell u the truth.
Merlyn
Thrawn's pretty pretty play thing
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hakan @ Feb 10 2006, 11:19 PM) [snapback]43377[/snapback][/center]
well my heart tells me mostly that I am a pretty decent human being. the man who is doing cranial Sacral therapy on me tells me that I have a beautiful soul and my sadnesss comes because I take in all I see and don't let it go. I see a world in turmoil right now. I see angry angry people who are frightened and hurt and have no way to express this in a constructive manner. I see innocent men women and children being killed every day either natural causes, some disaster or because we humans are a bloody violent trigger happy bunch who simply do not know when to draw the line and say stop.
History is full of these stories and it never bloody ends. Every day, every where we as a race hunt hurt maim rape kill and there are people who laugh while they do this, and pat themselves on the back for a job well done. Our prisons are over crowded and we elect wicked men to do what they think is best and we turn a blind eye to it.
We poison our only home until there will be nothing left of it for future generations and we lie to ourselves about the damage done because in our short life times it doesn't matter.
So to be honest, sometimes I am disgusted by human beings. I, as one peson cannot stop these things though i try my small way. We recycle and we do not kill rapemain pillage and we do try to vote for the people we think might just be less crooked than the rest, and try to share what we have withthose who have less.
We humans are capable of such greatness, such beauty and yet we seem to revel in the ugliness.
So while I am not ashamed of me and I know that I didn't do anything to crawl into a hole and hide for, I am sad for the rest of the world. I cannot watch the news without weeping.
and it doesn't ever end.
well my heart tells me mostly that I am a pretty decent human being. the man who is doing cranial Sacral therapy on me tells me that I have a beautiful soul and my sadnesss comes because I take in all I see and don't let it go. I see a world in turmoil right now. I see angry angry people who are frightened and hurt and have no way to express this in a constructive manner. I see innocent men women and children being killed every day either natural causes, some disaster or because we humans are a bloody violent trigger happy bunch who simply do not know when to draw the line and say stop.
History is full of these stories and it never bloody ends. Every day, every where we as a race hunt hurt maim rape kill and there are people who laugh while they do this, and pat themselves on the back for a job well done. Our prisons are over crowded and we elect wicked men to do what they think is best and we turn a blind eye to it.
We poison our only home until there will be nothing left of it for future generations and we lie to ourselves about the damage done because in our short life times it doesn't matter.
So to be honest, sometimes I am disgusted by human beings. I, as one peson cannot stop these things though i try my small way. We recycle and we do not kill rapemain pillage and we do try to vote for the people we think might just be less crooked than the rest, and try to share what we have withthose who have less.
We humans are capable of such greatness, such beauty and yet we seem to revel in the ugliness.
So while I am not ashamed of me and I know that I didn't do anything to crawl into a hole and hide for, I am sad for the rest of the world. I cannot watch the news without weeping.
and it doesn't ever end.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Merlyn @ Feb 10 2006, 05:33 PM) [snapback]43410[/snapback][/center]
/lick you get me. I know what goes on in the real world but if you have no humor thinking about this stuff will burn you up.nothing like a bit or ireverend commentary to change the mood
[/b]
reek
New member
Here is the Wikipedia on the event, which is enlightening. The NSA may just re-open the investigation yet.
Truth is important, absolutely. And we should find out the truth of the situation. Was Johnson trying to set up an event which would allow us to nuke Egypt? If so, what are the implications today, if any? Most likely it would not have any implications today.
Yes, our government has done shameful things. Yes it has covered up many things. It's certainly not perfect in any sense of the word. But it is also not unique among governments in that regard. I would even say it's the very nature of politics itself.
Past mistakes, even current mistakes, do not mean that the American people do not want justice for the world.
Truth is important, absolutely. And we should find out the truth of the situation. Was Johnson trying to set up an event which would allow us to nuke Egypt? If so, what are the implications today, if any? Most likely it would not have any implications today.
Yes, our government has done shameful things. Yes it has covered up many things. It's certainly not perfect in any sense of the word. But it is also not unique among governments in that regard. I would even say it's the very nature of politics itself.
Past mistakes, even current mistakes, do not mean that the American people do not want justice for the world.
Merlyn
Thrawn's pretty pretty play thing
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(reek @ Feb 10 2006, 11:50 PM) [snapback]43453[/snapback][/center]
I think that the majority of people want justice for the world, but I also think it is difficult for most myself included to know excatly what to believe and what to not believe. And what sort of justice, and who decides?
Argh!
The US is not the only government in the world to seriously screw up. But right now the US is sort of a big, heavily armed rogue nation and that makes people nervous.( AS a canadian I know this is a big part of how we view our rather large neighbour to the South) There is a perception of the US as being a land where its people believe so strongly in the My country right or wrong creed that it makes them do stupid things. When we stop the trritorial crap and start seeing the bigger picture, that is we all inhabit the same planet and we are all the same ( ie human) then maybe things will change.
I think that the majority of people want justice for the world, but I also think it is difficult for most myself included to know excatly what to believe and what to not believe. And what sort of justice, and who decides?
Argh!
The US is not the only government in the world to seriously screw up. But right now the US is sort of a big, heavily armed rogue nation and that makes people nervous.( AS a canadian I know this is a big part of how we view our rather large neighbour to the South) There is a perception of the US as being a land where its people believe so strongly in the My country right or wrong creed that it makes them do stupid things. When we stop the trritorial crap and start seeing the bigger picture, that is we all inhabit the same planet and we are all the same ( ie human) then maybe things will change.